United States: Diversity In Practice: Destigmatizing Black Mental Health (Podcast)

In this episode of Diversity in Practice, as part of MoFo's observance of Mental Health Awareness Month, Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer Natalie Kernisant moderates a discussion with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, founder of Therapy for Black Girls, a wildly popular mental health podcast, about the stigma around Black mental health and ways to manage stress during the pandemic. Dr. Joy is a licensed psychologist and speaker. Her work focuses on making mental health topics more relevant and accessible for Black women in particular, and she delights in using pop culture to illustrate psychological concepts. She has been featured on MTV and in O, The Oprah Magazine, Forbes, Bustle, Huffington Post, Black Enterprise, Refinery29, Teen Vogue, and Essence.

Transcript

Speaker: Welcome to MoFo Perspectives, a podcast by Morrison & Foerster, where we share the perspectives of our clients, colleagues, subject matter experts, and lawyers.

Natalie Kernisant: Welcome to the Diversity in Practice podcast, a part of MoFo Perspectives. My name is Natalie Kernisant, and I am the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer for Morrison & Foerster. This podcast series is designed to provide a space to discuss a wide variety of issues related to diversity in the law and to introduce you to some of our talented, diverse attorneys, their areas of legal expertise, and the work that they and their MoFo allies do in furtherance of diversity, equity, and inclusion. It's also our hope that by sharing D&I best practices, wherever possible, we can help make the legal industry a more inclusive place for those who are in the words of MoFo former chair, Bob Raven, just a little bit different.

Natalie Kernisant: I'm very happy to have with us today. Dr. Joy Harden Bradford. Dr. Joy, is it all right if I call you Dr. Joy?

Joy Harden Bradford: Sure.

Natalie Kernisant: Dr. Joy is a licensed psychologist, speaker, and the host of a wildly popular mental health podcast, entitled Therapy for Black Girls. She received her bachelor's degree in psychology from Xavier University of Louisiana, her master's degree in vocational rehabilitation counseling from Arkansas State, and her PhD in counseling psychology from the University of Georgia. She has been featured in O, the Oprah magazine; Bustle; Huffington Post; Insider; Black Enterprise; Women's Health; Teen Vogue; Essence; and many more. Dr. Joy lives in Atlanta, Georgia with her husband and two sons. Dr. Joy has joined us today to discuss black mental health, and the stigma that it sometimes carries. And she's also going to help us confront and manage the stress we are all experiencing during the pandemic. And without further ado, I'd like to get started. So thank you so much, Dr. Joy for joining us today.

Joy Harden Bradford: Thank you for having me.

Natalie Kernisant: So, I'd like to start at the beginning and explore some of what led you to where you are today. First, tell us a little bit about yourself. Like where did you grow up and what sparked your professional interest in mental health?

Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah, thank you for that question. So, I am originally from Louisiana, a very small town in Southern Louisiana in between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. Those are our big town landmarkers. And so I really talk about my love for psychology coming from just observing people on my grandmother's front porch. And so it was just always so interesting to see people passing and making up stories about what was going on. I also had the opportunity to take a psychology class in high school. It was a satellite class and really fell in love with the field. And so from that moment on, I knew that was what I wanted to major in once I got to college. I actually thought that I wanted to be a professor of psychology, but then I had one student teaching opportunity and decided the classroom was not actually for me. And that I really wanted to do more practice and hands on work with the psychology degree.

Natalie Kernisant: Interesting. I too was a psychology major and quickly decided I didn't want to be a professor either.

Joy Harden Bradford: (Laugh)

Natalie Kernisant: So your podcast, Therapy for Black Girls, which I love, is super popular. What made you decide to create a podcast in the first place?

Joy Harden Bradford: So before Therapy for Black Girls was my full-time job, I was the director of the counseling center at Clark Atlanta University. And I had a 45 minute to an hour commute each way to the job. And I would listen to a bunch of podcasts on my commute. And so at the time Therapy for Black Girls was just a blog, but as I started listening to podcasts, I thought, oh, this would be a great way to also share mental health information related to black women and helping them to prioritize themselves. And my husband actually has a background in radio producing. And so I knew that I would not have to look out of the house for assistance with the editing and technical process. And so after falling in love with listening to podcasts, I thought that I would add a podcast as something we offered on our site as well.

Natalie Kernisant: Awesome. So at MoFo, what I find that the most important aspect of creating our podcast is selecting the topics for each of episode. So I wanted to ask you, how do you go about selecting the topics for your podcast?

Joy Harden Bradford: Yes. I really am always paying attention to what our community is talking about. We have a very engaged community, both on social media and in our smaller community. And we have an app four called the sister circle, and I'm really always talking with them about what kinds of things are going on with you. We have a Google form we have set up as like a mailbox for people to send in things that they want us to cover. We also do a lot of like pop culture stuff on the podcast related to the kinds of things myself and the other producers are watching. So we really are just tapped into what people are listening to, talking about, wanting to learn more about, and we generate our topics from there.

Natalie Kernisant: So Dr. Joy, for those who don't know, Therapy for Black Girls, isn't just a podcast.

Joy Harden Bradford: So another part of the platform that we have at Therapy for Black Girls is our therapist directory. And we have over 5,000 therapists across the country and in Canada who really love doing great clinical work with black women and girls, but they also work with other people as well. A lot of people say, oh, can black men use this? Yeah, you can. They, they definitely see other people as well, but I continue to see conversations online for people looking for a therapist who look like them. And when you're thinking about therapy, which is something that can be foreign to a lot of us, a lot of us don't have parents and grandparents who have experienced therapy. And so it's still very much an uncomfortable and like unknown kind of territory. And so one thing that people do to try to make themselves more comfortable about the process is look for a therapist who looks like them in some way, or who they think they will have some similarities with.

Joy Harden Bradford: And so in the therapist directory, you can search for therapists, by your insurance, but most of the therapists listed there are also black women. And that has been really helpful for people who have been looking for therapists who do look like them to address the kinds of concerns that you hear. I've heard real stories from people who have had experiences with non-black therapists, who do talk about things like the microaggressions they experience while shopping, or being followed by the police. And maybe the therapist doesn't take it as seriously, or maybe they ask questions, like, what were you doing in that situation? So that is only invalidating somebody's experience. And so likely, if you are talking with a black therapist, it's very likely we've had some of those same experiences. And so we already know that you're telling the truth and can really help you to talk more about it and process, like what kind of things, or what experiences like that have done to you and how they may have impacted your mental health.

Natalie Kernisant: So just because I'm curious, how might a black therapist go about being included in your directory if they were interested in being included?

Joy Harden Bradford: So they do have to be licensed in their states or under the supervision of a licensed mental health professional. And so a lot of people don't always know that therapists are actually licensed by state. So I'm only licensed in Georgia. So I can't work with clients in California and Florida. Like you have to work with a therapist who's actually licensed in the state where you are. And so we do make sure that the therapists are licensed or, like I said, under the supervision of a licensed therapist. And so they submit their information, we check it over to make sure that their license is in good standing and then their profile is approved to be on the site.

Natalie Kernisant: So if someone is looking for a professional to talk to what types of things would you recommend they look for in a therapist? Should they request an interview first? And if so, are there specific questions we should be asking?

Joy Harden Bradford: So most therapists will give what is typically like a 10 to 15 minute free consultation when you are wanting to set up an appointment with them. But even before you get there, lots of therapists also have very well-done websites. A lot of the therapists are also active on social media. So you might be able to check out like the Instagram or Twitter page to see what kinds of resources they're sharing, what kinds of things they talk about. Do they have a specialty in the area that you're wanting to come in for? I mean, I think that is one of the mistakes that people make often is that they maybe find somebody on Instagram and they think they like their personality, but if they don't actually have the expertise in the area that you're bringing to therapy, they may not be a great fit for you.

Joy Harden Bradford: So you may have a great time talking with them, but it may not be actually super effective. So that's one thing I would encourage people—and also anything like I mentioned, anything that you think will help you to feel more comfortable talking with a stranger, right? Because a therapist is largely stranger to you, at least in the beginning. And so whatever qualities or characteristics you feel would help you to feel comfortable in that space. For some people that means a race or cultural match, some people that means somebody older, younger, male, female, non-binary, whatever things you think will really help you to feel more comfortable in this space, I think is totally fine for you to look for. You also want to look at how are you going to pay for it? So you heard the video talk about like insurance. So that is definitely one way that you can pay for therapy if your therapist is in panel or in network with the insurance, or you can just decide that you're going to pay privately.

Natalie Kernisant: That was extremely helpful. I did want to turn and talk a little bit about the stigma that exists today around black mental health, this idea that it's shameful or sometimes a sign of weakness to go to therapy. Where do you think that stigma comes from and what do you, what do you say to someone who subscribe to that ideology?

Joy Harden Bradford: So I think we can't forget the history of the mental health fields, like much of things in this country, therapy and mental health services have not always been a welcoming and an affirming space for black people and Drapetomania, which was running away from your plantation, was once classified as a mental illness. And so when we look at the history of the field, it's not surprising that people have not always felt like this was a safe space to actually talk about what was going on with them, because you could be penalized for that. But also like we talked about like our parents and grandparents often have not had experience with therapy. Also often people thought that if there was a mental illness or a mental health concern that meant you didn't have a strong enough faith connection or that you needed to pray harder or talk to a priest.

Joy Harden Bradford: And like he talked about, there's no reason why you can't do both of those things. I've been really encouraged to see congregations across the country have like mental health ministries. Some people even have counseling pro bono counseling centers as a part of their churches because they can coexist. So you can talk to a minister, a preacher about your concerns, but you can also talk with a licensed mental health professional because they're trained very differently. So there are some things that you're going to be able to talk with your therapist and get help, help related to that are going to be different than the things that you talk with your preacher about.

Natalie Kernisant: Yeah. So I've been paying attention to this field for quite some time and I do feel like mental health is becoming more acceptable in our community with folks like Charlamagne and Trevor Noah and Taraji talk about the importance of mental health and the positive impact therapies had in their lives. What do you think changed between our parents' generation and ours that made mental health less taboo or at least somewhat less taboo?

Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah. So I think largely it's due to us having language to describe what was happening. I don't know about you, Natalie. Again, I grew up in Louisiana and so I often heard my mom and aunties talking about their nerves being bad. And so I think we have always had our own language for what we know now is a mental health concern. And so I think with education, with more of us going into the fields and being able to translate like, Hey, the nerves bad is really anxiety or maybe you were actually having a panic attack. And so I think that's one part of it, but I also do think that celebrities, like you've mentioned, and other public figures talking openly about their own concerns, every time somebody does that, that chips away at the stigma that we talked about and it makes it okay for us to talk about, Hey, I'm not doing so well. If anything has been revealed in this pandemic, it is that I think a lot of us are struggling and not really operating at a hundred percent. And so I think that is one of the things that maybe a blessing in disguise, so to speak, is that more people I think are paying attention to how important their mental health is and then taking steps to do what they need to do to take care of it.

Natalie Kernisant: So switching gears just a little bit, research shows that there was a spike in depressive move concerns around the time technology went mobile and social media was born. So intuitively, that makes sense to me, right? Since we can no longer get away from the stress and the anxiety and the social pressures that are residing in our back pockets, now. Can you speak a little bit to this phenomenon and whether you have any best practices or guidance around how we could go about unplugging from the matrix so to speak?

Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah, I think that is really important. And I feel because technology, it feels like moves faster than we can often keep up with. And then research is keeping up with there's still a lot we don't know about how our interaction with technology is actually impacting our mental health, but a couple of things do come to mind. So when we are spending more time on the screen, even if it is in doing things that we enjoy, like watching Netflix or whatever, that does mean that you are probably not outside, it does probably mean that you are not connecting with people in your real life, which can lead to greater mental health. So I think it has related to some isolation. The other thing we know about spending too much time on the screen or when we get really engrossed in an activity is that we can forget that it is actually time to go to bed.

Joy Harden Bradford: And so we also see that people are, that technology is impacting people's sleep cycles. And there's been some research that talks about like the blue light from our devices and how that also impacts our sleep cycle. And we know that there's a strong connection between sleep and getting good rest and how our mental health is actually performing. So that's the other thing. And I think the other thing, like you mentioned is just boundaries around technology, right? And for a lot of us working from home, when you were going into an office, there were very clear indicators to the beginning and the end of your day, maybe you had a commute, you had to leave the office, you cook dinner. And now all of that feels like it is smushed in together. And so I think people have had to really reconfigure what boundaries look like for themselves.

Joy Harden Bradford: So if you can work in one space and kind of have your fun time be in a different place so that your brain doesn't get confused about, what's supposed to be happening when you're in any particular room. I think that that's really important and making sure that you are getting outside. So just allowing the sun to be on your skin, seeing the wind breeze against you, like all of those things are really important and making sure as much as possible if you can safely connect with people in real life. So that all of your connection is not through a video screen. I think that those things are really important.

Natalie Kernisant: Yeah, absolutely. So I didn't want to talk a little bit about the sociopolitical realities of the time and their impact on black mental health. So in the wake of George Floyd's televised murder, I know that I, as a diversity professional, had to spring into action and start to devise a plan for how the firm was going to cope with sort of the hurt and anger and anxiety and general mistrust it sparked in our community. And that was even before I really was able to process myself what was going on and how that was impacting me and my family. So my question is before we get into sort of the greater—the conversation about black mental health, I wonder not only how the events of that summer impacted your work. So like were your conversations different, were the issues that were coming up in therapy sessions different, but also, and almost more importantly to me, what was your experience having to care for others while I'm sure you were still trying to heal and make sense of everything that was going on with two sons in this political, current climate?

Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah, I think that was a lot for a lot of us and, and a lot of it feels like a whirlwind. Like I think something else that has happened because of the pandemic is that time feels very fuzzy. And so it feels difficult like at what point was that and like how far ago was that. But I think there was so much going on there and a couple of things. So I also—a huge part of me taking care of my mental health is meeting with my own therapist. So every Tuesday that is where I am. That was really helpful for me. And, and just kind of processing like what all was happening. But as you mentioned, because of my role as a mental health professional, a lot of people were hurting. And so it, it did feel important for me to have what we call like just open processing sessions, where people could log onto a zoom and talk about how they were feeling, what they felt like they needed, how they were going to take care of themselves.

Joy Harden Bradford: And we did a couple of those. And so that was one way that we like spring into action and really wanted to try to support our communities. But there was all also I think for a lot of people, what I heard come up was this one just continued anger related to like police brutality and sadness and like the horribly violent nature in which his life was taken. But the other part of that was all of this interest that it feels like was drummed up by the video and by his death. And so it feels like that was an incident that woke a lot of people up. And a lot of black people felt like, where have you been? Like, this is not the first time something like this has happened. And so I think that there was some resentment that people had largely been able to live their lives separated from the reality that many of us know to be a kind of daily kind of occurrence.

Joy Harden Bradford: And you saw all of these like memes and videos around like checking on your black friends. And what that really did was mean that we were like the emotional dumping ground for white people's feelings. And so while we are all trying to figure out how to keep ourselves and our families alive in a pandemic and continue to deal with racism and this very public crime and murder. Now, we are also trying to like wade through all of these people's feelings about this thing that again, many of us had been knowing about and like living with daily. And so I think it really forced us to try to figure out like, how do I take care of myself and not take on these responsibilities from people? And, and I think a lot of friendships were damaged because of that. I think there was a lot of tension.

Joy Harden Bradford: We definitely saw a spike in re-request for speaking engagements and workplaces wanting workshops and all of these things. And I think now years, plus maybe later, I think what's happening is that there's a—we have swung to the other direction. And so you see all this legislation around voting rights and not like people not making good on the promises that they made during that summer. And so I think that is yet another kind of knife in the back for the black community because it feels like there was so much energy and so much interest there, then, and now people are fighting just for basic rights. And so I think it has been an emotional up and down whirlwind, I think for a lot of people, myself included.

Natalie Kernisant: I was going to ask you what you do for your own mental healthcare, but you mentioned a little bit about going to therapy. Is it difficult to find a therapist for a therapist?

Joy Harden Bradford: (laugh) So it definitely can! So I think it is difficult for most therapists to find another therapist because we do a lot of networking with one another, consultation, but also because I'm a therapist who runs a directory for other therapists, most of the therapists in the area are actually listed. And so I would not want to, that would be like a dual relationship and a conflict of interest in a lot of ways for me to be seeing a therapist who's actually paying me money. And so it was really hard. I had to do quite a bit of searching to find somebody who's off the grid and is not listed in the directory so that I could have a comfortable space to talk about my own concerns.

Natalie Kernisant: So switching little to the pandemic, if we can even separate that from the social justice issues we were talking about, I know in my work over the last few years, I've seen an uptick in reported feelings of isolation and disconnection, which you mentioned in the workplace and particularly among black associates. So how have you seen the pandemic affect black mental health? To the extent, like I said, we can distinguish that from what was going on with race in the country?

Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah. It is often difficult to tease that out because so many things were preexisting conditions, so to speak, which interestingly, at least in the beginning of the pandemic. I saw a lot of people, of course, have anxiety related to the pandemic because we didn't really know what was happening, but a lot of black people who I had conversations with talked about their mental health actually improving in a lot of ways because they were not having to go into the office. So we know about all these microaggressions that often happen in the office being a hostile environment. We know the armor that we often have to put on just to go into the office of the smiling face every morning. And a lot of people did not have to do that anymore. And so what they noticed is that their mental health actually improved because there was more distance between themselves and their colleagues.

Joy Harden Bradford: So I think a lot of people saw some improvement it there, but I also think that people have really been enjoying having a more flexible kind of a schedule, right? So of course there are some things that you still have to do, but because you're working remotely, I think people have been able to take care of themselves and tend to themselves and their families in different ways, which I think has actually improved their mental health. But the isolation I think is very real. Again, especially for people who are, who have not been quarantining and doing the pandemic with a family or other people, it has been incredibly isolating. And so I think those people have had to be very creative. Some people have created pods, so maybe getting together with other single friends and doing this thing together while being very creative in terms of going out for walks socially distanced and doing those kinds of things so that they are not isolated. But I do think it has had a huge toll on people, just even the anxiety, because even though we know more now than we did in March 2020, we still don't have all the answers. And it does feel like every time we get a little bit of stability, then there's a new variant. And so it grows as into this tailspin again. And so I think anxiety is something else that has been really high for a lot of people during this time.

Natalie Kernisant: I've also simultaneously seen the disproportionate amount of pressure being placed on working caretakers. The overwhelming majority, at least in my experience have been women. So have you noticed mental health differences within the black community as a result of the pandemic, whether along gender lines or other micro communities? And if so, can you tell us a little bit about what those differences have been?

Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah. I think that caregivers, again, many of us are struggling, but I definitely think caregivers particularly for people who like our parenting or caregiving for kids under five who not, who aren't even eligible for the vaccine. I think that their lives have been really reimagined. They've had to really figure out how they were going to get through this. I've seen all these articles about like moms who just want to go into a desert somewhere and scream because I think that people have this—right. I will raise my hand too—(laugh) have this feeling that you're like just treading water every day. You are just trying to get to the next day. And there has largely been no relief. And a lot of the things that we did to fill our cups up metaphorically, like maybe going to the gym or happy hours or girls trips or those kinds of things like a lot of that has been taken from us.

Joy Harden Bradford: And so it really is just like a constant depletion without very much to restore you and to put back into you. And so I think it is really important for people to give themselves just an incredible amount of grace right now, your numbers or whatever your metrics are for success are going to look drastically different right now than they did before March 2020. And I think for people who are in the legal field, that may be very difficult, right? Because you're used to staying on top of things, but honestly there is just no way that you're going to be able to be as productive as you were then because you're a human, you're not a robot. And so I think it has been difficult, especially we know around this strong black woman trope and strong black man trope that often we feel like we have to be super human, but we are actually human.

Joy Harden Bradford: We're not robots. And so keeping up with those expectations, I think only makes us more critical of ourselves. And then you start to see things like depression, which also impacts your productivity. So then, it becomes like this really vicious cycle. And so I think one way to break that is to give yourself grace and to give yourself permission to maybe not be doing your best right now. And I think that anything that managers can do and supervisors can do to make that load a little lighter and set realistic expectations for your team really can go a long way in terms of supporting people's mental health.

Natalie Kernisant: Do you have any tips or best practices? I know you spoke a little bit to some of the things, especially around social media and unplugging, but any tips or best practices for managing stress during the pandemic?

Joy Harden Bradford: (laugh) Whatever works for you at this stage of the pandemic. You know, like I have talked about going outside and embracing nature, but I think that is really important because it helps you to remember that you're connected to something bigger. And so going outside again, feeling the sunshine on your skin, there's a lot of research that talks about the increase in cortisol that we get from sunshine. And so I think that is really important in helping to manage stress. The other thing that I would encourage people to do is to make sure that you're getting some physical activity, so that doesn't have to be super strenuous if you were going to major aerobic classes, but even a dance party in the middle of your kitchen or walk around your neighborhood, like all of those things, again, really help to keep serotonin and things flowing in your body and in your brain, which can help to improve your mood. So physical activity and getting outside I think are really important.

Natalie Kernisant: Yeah, absolutely. I always feel much better after I've had a chance to go outside and reconnect with nature, even though I'm not an outdoorsy person, but.

Joy Harden Bradford: (laugh)

Natalie Kernisant: Turning back to therapy, there are obviously many misconceptions, right? Particularly in our community around therapy. What's the biggest misconception you've encountered about mental health?

Joy Harden Bradford: I think the biggest one is that you have to be in a crisis to go to therapy. So I think a lot of times we only think about therapy as is like this last stitch effort, right? Like I have to do something. So I'm going to go and see a therapist. And of course a therapist can support you during that time. But what I also want people to know is that you can do some incredible work and have some incredible benefits by seeing a therapist even before you're at a code red situation. So there really is nothing that you cannot talk with a therapist about. So if you notice that you are having difficulties in your relationship, we've talked a little bit about boundary setting. And I think a lot of us have difficulties with boundaries that we may not even have language for, or we don't recognize how that is impacting our mental health.

Joy Harden Bradford: But if you have difficulty setting boundaries around work with your family members and friendships, then working with a therapist can be an excellent way to really do some great work around setting better boundaries in your life. But if you notice that you have been relying on substances or other things more than you want to or you realize it's impacting your functioning, then that's also another reason to see a therapist. So like I said, there really is no reason that you can't see a therapist. And I really want people to know that you can go before you get to a crisis situation. Because if you go before you're in crisis, you may actually be able to prevent the crisis. So I think that's the biggest misconception I hear.

Natalie Kernisant: Yeah, absolutely. So I know your work focuses on making mental health topics more relevant and accessible to black women and in creating spaces for black women to have fuller, healthier relationships with themselves and with others. Why focus specifically on black women?

Joy Harden Bradford: So I think I touched on it a little bit before Natalie. I think this strong black woman trope has really been a plague for black women. So we are expected to be the ones that show up for everybody, but often what that looks is us not taking care of ourselves. And so that is really important, I think for a lot of us to be there for other people, but you can't do that if you're not actually taking care of yourself. And so it was really important for me to create space, to have the kinds of conversations that we only talk about with our girlfriends, but on a larger scale, because I think we only often think about mental health as mental illness, right? So we think about people having some kind of diagnosis when truly mental health exists on a spectrum. And it's something that we all have to take care of. And yes, we do have conversations about mental illness and looking for the symptoms of different kinds of things. But I also want us to have conversations about the kinds of things we can do to take care of our mental health that may be able to actually prevent mental illness.

Natalie Kernisant: Mm-hmm. And you have a project I know, set to release in the summer of 2023. Can you tell us a little bit about Sisterhood Heals and your journey to create it?

Joy Harden Bradford: I love that you called it a project, because that releases my anxiety around calling it the book that I'm actually spending all of my time kind of writing, but yeah, so the book is scheduled to come out in the summer of next year and it really is a celebration of black women's relationships with one another. And so one of the ways that I think black women have done an excellent job in managing their mental health is in our connections with one another. And we know that in a lot of ways, sisterhood and taking care of one another has been survival for us. And so the book is really about the history of what our sisterhoods look like, but also really coming to grips with some of the not so great pieces of sisterhood. So what happens when a friend is envious? What happens when you decide that you have to end a friendship, how our friendships have changed during the pandemic? So I'm hoping to address all of that in the book.

Natalie Kernisant: You know, I wanted to ask a couple questions about helping others, particularly if we see them in distress. So I think we were all really shocked by the recent suicides of people like the former miss USA, Chelsea Christ and Ian Alexander, Regina King's son. But when I looked into it a bit more, I found that suicide is a 10^th leading cause of death in the United States. And that rates of suicide in the black community are on the rise. So do you have any advice on how best to care for our friends and colleagues, particularly since so many people seem to be suffering and silenced, are there signs and symptoms that we should be looking for?

Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah. I'm glad you asked that question because I think for a long time there was also the misconception that black people didn't die by suicide. A lot of people thought, oh, that's not something that black people have to deal with, but it actually is. And like you mentioned the numbers are rising, particularly when you look at our youth. So black girls and boys, we are seeing an even higher increase in completed suicides, which is of course very scary. And so I think the first thing is that we can't be afraid to have these conversations, both on a large scale like this, but also just personally and asking people have you about killing yourself or have you thought about ending your life? Again, I think people have often felt like if you ask that question, you're putting something in somebody's mind, but it's actually doing the opposite when you are open and asking that question, it really can be a relief for people who may have been experiencing suicidal thoughts.

Joy Harden Bradford: And now they know that you're somebody that they could talk to about it. And so getting comfortable asking that question, if we have concerns can be really helpful in terms of like signs and symptoms of people who may be feeling suicidal. So you will sometimes see things like people doing a lot of saying goodbye, but not necessarily saying it in that way. It may be more indirect. If you see people like starting to give away a lot of their personal possessions that can also be a sign that's concerning. Another thing that really correlates highly completed suicide is people who have had previous suicide attempts. So anyone who has had a previous suicide attempt is at a higher risk for future attempts. So that is something else to be on the lookout for. And the other thing that I think was really concerning with both Cheslie and Ian's death is that people talked about like, just not knowing anything was going on, especially in Cheslie's case where she had very public videos and she's a beauty queen and like how could anything be going on?

Joy Harden Bradford: But the truth is that a lot of us are not open in talking about how we're struggling. We've already talked about the armor that we have to put on to come into the office. And so for a lot of us, there is no space to be sad, right? Like historically black people have not had the opportunity to be somewhere sulking in a corner. Like you have to get up and go. And so I think that means that a lot of people miss the signs or that people are not even being honest with themselves about how they're struggling, but I think what's important for people to know is that depression doesn't have just one look. And so it doesn't always look like crying in sadness. Sometimes it looks like irritability. Sometimes it looks like overworking. Sometimes it looks like isolation and not being interested in the things that you previously were.

Joy Harden Bradford: And so when people have these conversations about not knowing anything was struggling, you have to be honest and say, you don't always let people know when you're struggling either. And so I do think it is, is important for us to make sure we're checking in with one another and asking the hard questions and offering support for people, but also letting people support us. So you maybe have seen memes again about checking on your strong friend, but the other piece of it is that if you are the strong friend, you also have to let people check in on you. You have to be honest with people who you trust about how you actually are doing and then allow them to support you.

Natalie Kernisant: Yeah, absolutely. And you actually brought this last question when you talked about children and suicide, right? There was an alarming article in last September in the New York Times called What's Going on with Our Black Girls, in which experts warned of rising suicide rates among black children and adolescents, specifically black girls. And you mentioned that. So now many of us are parents, aunties, uncles. How do we know when children might need therapy or help? And is it ever too early to seek therapy? Are there developmental things that we should be concerned about if we're seeking help for our children?

Joy Harden Bradford: So most children will benefit from therapy after they're verbal. So I would say after the age of four or five, but even earlier, sometimes a lot of therapists engage in play therapy and can actually help kids in that way. But, usually after verbal and to have fluid conversations, that would be a good age to start. And again, you don't have to wait until a crisis. So I think for a lot of kids, like my kids have still been virtual schooling this whole time. So even just as a preventative measure, having them talk with someone about what all of this has meant, I think could be a good thing, but also asking your kids very pointed questions about how they are dealing with this. Like how, what are they missing in terms of connecting with friends or how have things changed? What are they looking forward to being able to do after we're on the other side of this, like keeping them engaged in those kinds of conversations?

Joy Harden Bradford: And I think it's really important to also make sure that you're monitoring like their messages and also like any social media pages that they may have because a lot of times they will be very vocal in places that they don't think that you are paying attention to. And so I think if they know that this is something that, you know, parents and caregivers are going to be monitoring, then that can also open up some conversations. I wouldn't say spy. Right? But definitely open up a conversation around what kinds of things that, what kinds of videos are you watching? Who are you talking to so that you have eyes on what's actually happening. And again, not being able, not being afraid to ask those questions. So if you see your child or a young person in your life being more isolated, right? So they used to be super outgoing and now you see them more isolated or you notice that they used to really love playing basketball and now they don't want to go outside. Like all of those are signs that something is going on. So the best thing to do is not to lead with any judgment. Hey, I think you're depressed we need to see a therapist, but actually saying, "Hey, you typically really love basketball and I haven't seen you outside. Is there something going on that I can help with?" So really paying attention and focusing more on symptoms and things you've observed as opposed to any diagnosis or judgment is really important, especially when you're talking to young people.

Natalie Kernisant: That's super helpful. So focusing on observations as opposed to judgements to lead those conversations.

Speaker: Please make sure to subscribe to the MoFo Perspectives podcast so you don't miss an episode. If you have any questions about what you heard today, or would like more information on this topic, please visit mofo.com/podcasts. Again, that's MoFo, M-O-F-O.com/podcasts.

Because of the generality of this update, the information provided herein may not be applicable in all situations and should not be acted upon without specific legal advice based on particular situations.

© Morrison & Foerster LLP. All rights reserved